חצי הכוס הריקה.

כצפוי מביטאון שבטי, 'הארץ' ניצל את הכתבה הזאת להתגוללות הטקסית הרגילה על חרדים, אבל אנחנו נעיף בה מבט נוסף. כי היא חשובה. הכתבה מספרת על מה שקרה לתקציב החינוך בעידן קומישר החינוך גדעון סער ותקציב – מספר את הסיפור הרבה יותר טוב מאלף נאומים והודעות לעיתונות. תקציב הוא תמיד הדבר האמיתי.

אז רוב תקציב משרד החינוך קשיח למדי והולך ברובו למשכורות. אותו חלק מהתקציב שאפשר לשחק אתו, והמקור העיקרי לסוכריות שבאפשרותו של השר לחלק למי שהוא רוצה, הן תוספות שונות, שהסתכמו בשנת 2011 ב – 2.6 מיליארדי שקלים. מתוך כספים אלו, לחינוך החילוני ניתנו אי אילו פירורים, ההעברות לחינוך החרדי עלו ביותר משליש והכסף לחינוך הדתי-לאומי – וכאן אנחנו מגיעים לסיפור המרכזי – גדל במאות אחוזים. בשנת 2008 תקציבו של האגף הממלכתי דתי היה 9.5 מליוני שקלים. ב – 2011 תקציבו היה 58,5 מיליון. ועוד לא ספרנו את המיליונים שהולכים לכל תכניות האינדוקטרינציה השונות תחת השמות המכובסים "יהדות", "ציונות", "אהבת הארץ" ושאר סירופ מתוק.

זמן קצר אחרי שקומישר החינוך הנוכחי התמנה לתפקידו, הוא מינה לתפקיד יו"ר המזכירות הפדגוגית וליד ימנו את איש המכון לאסטרטגיה ציונית, ד"ר צבי צמרת. זה שהרים והוביל את המתקפה על לימודי האזרחות, קיצוצם, דילולם, צנזורם ו"איזון" תכני הדמוקרטיה שבהם ע"י תכנים של "יהדות" ו"ציונות" שהתלמידים ממילא מקבלים למכביר במקצועות אחרים. וצבי צמרת הצהיר בזמנו שאת ילדיו שלו הוא שולח לחינוך הממלכתי-דתי כדי ש"ייהנו מחצי הכוס המלאה".

והחינוך הדתי-לאומי הוא אכן חצי הכוס המלאה. תקציבית, כמו שראינו, אבל לא רק. במתכוון או שלא, הביטוי "חצי הכוס המלאה" הוא מחווה לעגלה המלאה. זו של הדתים, שמלאה ועמוסה בתוכן ובערכים, להבדיל מ"העגלה הריקה"של החילונים. ותפיסה זו נכונה לגמרי, לפחות כשמדובר במערכת החינוך.

הערכים הנלמדים במערכת חינוך הדתית-לאומית אולי הולכים ונעשים דומים לאלו שנלמדים במדרסות של אפגניסטן – אבל הם ישנם. היא גדושה בהם. מערכת החינוך הדתית מחנכת לערכים, להשקפות, לדעות ובאופן חופשי על הבר לגמרי, גם לעמדות פוליטיות ימניות.

ובחצי הכוס הריקה? "הישגים", יעדים ומדדים, נקודות מיצ"ב, זכאות לבגרות ואחוזי נשירה. מיקודים וציונים. שממה של טבלאות, גראפים, נוהלים וסטטיסיקות שהייתה מוציאה מדעתו פקיד שומה. עם פועלי ייצור שדופקים שעון במקום מורים ותלמידים נכאי רוח שמשננים שלושה גורמים לעלייה השנייה וארבע תוצאות של מלחמת העולם הראשונה כדי להקיא אותם במבחן. תלמידים שיודעים לדקלם – וגם ידקלמו ברגע שיחשדו במשהו – "אין פוליטיקה בבית הספר". הרי חילונים אנחנו, אצלנו כל אחד מאמין במה בא לו, תלושים כמו פרפרים שעוברים מפרח לפרח אנחנו ולמה מי הוא פועל ההוראה שיתערב בחירות האינטלקטואלית של התלמיד הישראלי? ואז, אותם האנשים שעיקרו וניטרלו את מערכת החינוך החילונית מערכים בשם ה"הישגיות" – תופסים את הראש וצועקים געוואלד! איך קיבלנו דור כזה חסר ערכים, שרק הכסף והחומר מעניינים אותו?

אלו אותם אנשים שגררו כל מורה שהתעקש לשים לרגע בצד את המרדף אחרי הבגרות -חרף מחאותיהם של התלמידים ששוכנעו שציון נמוך בבחינה משמעו חיים כהומלס מתחת לגשר, כדי לדבר על ענייני היום או כדי להעמיק בנושא – לחדר המנהל לקבל על הראש על פגיעה בנתוני ההישגיות של בית הספר ולכן גם בתקציב שהוא מקבל. אלו אותם אנשים שגררו כל מורה שמעז לשתף את התלמידים בעמדתו הפוליטית, או אף נצפה בהפגנה כלשהי או העז לשתף סטטוס פוליטי בפייסבוק, לשימועים ושיחות הפחדה במשרד החינוך. המדובר, כמובן, בהפגנות שמאל ובחינוך החילוני והערבי בלבד. להפגנות ימין, המורים בחינוך הדתי עצמם יכולים לקחת את תלמידיהם באוטובוס של המועצה וזה בסדר כי פעם השמאלנים בקיבוצים היו עושים את זה וכל דבר ששמאלני עשה אי אז נותן צ'ק פתוח לימין לעשות כל דבר שנראה לו דומה ובריבית דריבית לנצח נצחים ומה אתם בוכים יא צבועים, איפה הייתם כשיולי תמיר פיטרה את אסתר ברנד?

ומאיפה ייקחו "ערכים" למלא בהם את חצי הכוס הריקה אם לא מאותו מקום שכוסו רוויה ושבו כמו בסיפור הזן הישן ממשיכים למזוג והנוזל נשפך לכל הכיוונים וצריך ללכת לאן שהוא? אז באות בנות שירות ללמד את בני דורן שלהן "יהדות" מהי מתוקף העובדה שזכו לגדול בבית דתי, ביקורים אצל ברוך מרזל ואיתמר בן-גביר בחברון ואצל עמותת הימין אלע"ד ב'עיר דוד' שהפכה – בשליחות הממשלות – את חייהם של תושבי וואדי חילווה שבסילוואן לגיהנום כדי להקרין לילדים סרטי תלת-מימד קיטשיים בסגנון ובמימון נוצרי-אוונגליסטי, ו"מסע ישראלי" של הרב המתחכך מוטי אלון ותכנית "תרבות ישראל ומורשתו" של מעריץ 'אם תרצו' בנימין איש-שלום וקצינים וחיילים במקום מורים ועוד ועוד.

אף אחד לא חשב למלא את מערכת החינוך החילונית בערכים חילוניים. היינו יכולים ללמד את הציונות של אלטנוילנד של הרצל ולא של הפמפלט המסורבל "כוכב מישראל" של ההוגה הדגול רונן שובל, את היהדות של משה מנדסלון, הרב שלום משאש ומרטין בובר ולא של שבתי צבי המודרני הרב צבי יהודה קוק. היינו יכולים ללמד את התנ"ך כלימודים קלאסיים, כמו שבמקומות אחרים לומדים הומרוס ווירגיליוס ולא כ"הוכחה" מפוקפקת לזכותנו לנשל ולדכא ערבים מעורבת בממבו-ג'מבו פסאודו-אקדמי. היינו יכולים ללמד היסטוריה כדרך להבין טוב יותר את האנושות ואת החלק בה שהוא אנחנו ולא כדרך להנחיל לילדים תודעה טראומטית של קורבן נצחי. ולא היה הורג אותנו ללמד אבולוציה בלי להתנצל, שלא לדבר על דמוקרטיה.

אבל בישראל אין "חילוניות". דאגו ודואגים שגם לא תהיה. ה"חילונים" שלנו הם דתיים שלא בא להם לקיים מצוות, שרוצים שהמדינה תהיה "יהודית" כדי שהם לא יצטרכו להיות בעצמם, שיאכלו שרימפס בערב שבת אבל יאלצו את בת זוגם לשקר לחבורת מזוקנים ולעבור תהליך ארוך ומשפיל אם יתגלה במקרה שהייתה לה סבתא שיקסע מצד האימא לפני 200 שנה.

והימין של היום הוא קומבינה קטלנית בין הרע ביותר בשני העולמות, החילוני והדתי. מאחד לקחו את השטחיות והנהנתנות ואת תרבות הצריכה ואת תפוס ככל יכולתך ואכול ושתה כי מחר נמות ואת הפוסט-מודרניזם הציני. מהאחר לקחו את הלאומנות המתלהמת ושנאת הזר והמיזוגניה והפאתוס המלודרמטי ואת בכל דור ודור קמים עלינו לכלותינו. ואין כמו גדעון סער, זה שבלילות מתהולל במועדונים של תל-אביב ובבוקר מתגבר כארי לקום מההנגאובר להרביץ תורה בילדים שלנו, כדי להיות הפוסטר-בוי, המוציא והמביא של כל זה.

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1,193 Responses to חצי הכוס הריקה.

  1. ערן טרבלסי says:

    תודה, מעולה כרגיל.
    תיקון קטן – פבאודו –> פסאודו.

  2. יעל says:

    גדעון סער לא מפתיע אותי אפילו קצת, אבל ניתוח התקציב בכל זאת חשוב, אז תודה על זה.
    ובכל זאת – כתבת שתקציב החינוך הממלכתי-דתי גדל במאות אחוזים – אבל על מה יצא הכסף? ישנם מוסדות חינוך בממ"ד שסבלו במשך שנים רבות מהזנחה ובעיקר מחומרי לימוד מיושנים. אולי היה כאן תיקון היסטורי.

    ההבחנה שלך בנוגע למילוי הכוס הריקה בתכולה המזהירה של הכוס מלאה קולעת לגמרי: כבר שנים מערכת החינוך הישראלית נתונה במהלך הזה. דוגמה מובהקת היא הצעד של ביטול ההפרדה בין המקצוע "תולדות עם ישראל" למקצוע "היסטוריה", שתוצאתו – בחינת בגרות שעוסקת בעיקר ביהודים אשכנזים ציונים וקצת באחרים.

    ראוי לציון (אך לא מפתיע בכלל) שהחינוך הממלכתי במגזר הערבי לא מופיע בטבלאות האלה, אע"פ שאין לי ספק שהוא מופיע בטבלה נפרדת במשרד החינוך.

    תקציב החינוך בישראל בכל מקרה נמוך להכאיב ולא מספיק לכלום. השאלה המסקרנת בעיני היא לאן הולך הכסף שלא הולך למשכורות.

  3. עדו says:

    אולי הם צודקים. אחרי הכל, אם החילונים באמת יחשבו ברצינות על שאלות כמו 'מה אנחנו עושים כאן?' או יאמצו לעצמם חשיבה ביקורתית דמוקרטית בהחלט ייתכן שהם יגיעו למסקנה שמדינה לא יכולה להיות בו בזמן 'יהודית ודמוקרטית' וצריך לבחור בין אחד מהם.
    (אני בוחר בדמוקרטיה) .

    • אמנון says:

      הטענה הזו, שיש "לבחור בין יהדות לדמוקרטיה", היא בדיוק התוצאה של ריקון מערכת החינוך מתכנים חילוניים.
      כי זה בדיוק מה שצריכה מערכת חינוך ערכית לעשות – להראות את הדרך לגשר בין שני הקטבים הללו, באמצעות לימודי ההיסטוריה, התנך, האזרחות, וכתביהם של ההוגים השונים שהוזכרו גם כאן בפוסט הזה.
      הזהות שנוצרה בין יהדות לבין הממסד הדתי-ימני היא שגורמת לקיומה של התפיסה הזו ש"אין מדינה יהודית ודמוקרטית", ועידוד התפיסה הזו רק מחזק את אבדן החילוניות היהודית ואת המונופול של הממסד הדתי-ימני על היהדות.

    • גיא says:

      פוסט נכון, מקיף ומדויק.
      אבל חסר לי משהו קטן: מה עושים מכאן? יש משהו לעשות בכלל?
      עדו בתגובתו חושב שהצדק עמם ואין הרבה מה לעשות. משום שרק הדת, על מגרעותיה כבסיס למדינה, יכולה לספק לנו תשתית קיומית למדינת לאום יהודי. הוא אינו מכיר בצירוף יהודית ודמוקרטית וסבור שיש לבחור באחת מהן. לכן מכאן הדרך מתפצלת ל-2: מדינת לאומנות יהודית כפי שיש כיום, או "מדינת כל אזרחיה".

      אני סבור אחרת. אין דבר כזה דמוקרטיה מושלמת; דמוקרטיה היא סקאלה וכל מדינה בעולם נמצאת היכנשהו על הציר הזה. יש מתח מסוים בין שני המושגים אבל אין בהכרח סתירה. אפשר להיות מדינת לאום יהודי שהיא דמוקרטית. וממש לא צריך את הדת עצמה כנימוק הנורמטיבי היחיד למדינת ישראל. היהדות, על כל גווניה – כתרבות – כתשתית לאומית ולא רק החלק האורתודוקסי-הלכתי, שרבים, כולל חילונים, משוכנעים בטעות שהוא ה"יהדות האמיתית" שעומדת בבסיס קיומנו כאן.

      החילונים הפקירו לא רק את היהדות אלא גם את הערכים. אפשר לראות זאת באיוש תפקידי הפיקוד בצה"ל. התשובה שחסרה לי כאן היא איך משנים את המצב, שוברים את המונופול על היהדות, ומחזירים את החצי המלא של הכוס? איך מגבשים זהות יהודית חילונית עצמאית שמצליחה לבדה לספק נימוק למדינת לאום יהודי? ברור לי שיש דבר כזה, אבל איך משתלטים על ההגה ומנווטים לכיוון הזה?

      • זה טיעון מזרוחניקי ותיק. הבעיה במדינת לאום יהודית היא לא שהדמוקרטיה בה לא תהיה מושלמת, אלא שיש בה מצב בו חלק מהאזרחים הילידים לא נכללים בלאום של המדינה. אני מכיר מדינות בהם חלק מהאזרחים מפתחים נטיות בדלניות ורוצים להיפרד מהמדינה, אבל לא עולה לי בראש שום דוגמא מההווה בה המדינה עצמה לא מכירה באזרחים שלה כחלק ממנה.

        המדינה יכולה להיות מדינת הלאום הישראלי, שעקב הנסיבות ההיסטוריות של התפתחותו וזהותם של רוב האזרחים, תהיה בעלת צביון יהודי אבל לא צביון יהודי בלעדי. לדעתי, באופן זה, אפילו שבאופן רשמי זה פחות מאשר "מדינה יהודית" במובן המקובל, הצביון היהודי יכול להיות מלא ועשיר הרבה יותר מאשר היום. לארה"ב, שהיא "מדינת כל אזרחיה" קלאסית יש צביון נוצרי-פרוטסטנטי, גם דתי וגם תרבותי, הרבה יותר עמוק מאשר הצביון היהודי של ישראל. אבל אתה לא חייב להיות נוצרי או פרוטסטנטי כדי להיות אמריקאי. על זה בערך הרצל כתב באלטנוילנד.

        לכבי הניכוס מחדש של יהדות ע"י חילונים, אני בעד וזה קורה. ואני צופה שהתהליך הזה יתגבר. הבעיה בו היא שכרגע, זה תהליך אשכנזי בעיקרו, ואני חושב שבעניין הזה יש פתרונות טובים דווקא אצל יהודי המזרח. או לפחות היו. בארץ די הרסו את העניין הזה.

        • גיא says:

          נשמע טוב, אבל: הפערים בין הקבוצות האתניות גדולים מדי בכדי להיכלל תחת "לאום ישראלי". בארה"ב יש לפחות את המכנה המשותף שכולם בחרו לגור שם מתוך תקווה לעתיד טוב יותר. אבל כאן, יש תהום בין אזרחי המדינה הזו. בכל זאת, לבני לאום מסוים צריכה להיות איזוהי תחושת אחדות, שותפות גורל, או שלפחות יזהו עצמם כבני לאום כזה. יש הרבה יהודים וערבים שבחיים לא היו מוכנים להשתייך לאותו לאום כמו בני העם השני.
          יש גם את העניין של חוק השבות. איך א-סימטריה כה בולטת (גם אם נכונה מוסרית, לצורך העניין) יכולה להיות מוצדקת אם לא דרך הגדרה פורמלית של מדינת לאום יהודי? והרי לוותר על חוק השבות זה כבר צעד קיצוני יחסית, שעלול להחליש את אותו "צביון יהודי" עליו אתה בונה.

          אני לא יודע מה זה "לא מכירה בהם כחלק ממנה". ודאי שהאזרחים הערבים הם חלק ממנה. והם ראויים לכל הזכויות האזרחיות הרגילות. ההבדל הוא שסמלי המדינה יהיו יהודים וינקטו צעדים כדי שישמר רוב יהודי. איש לא מצפה מאזרחים ערבים אלה להזדהות מלאה עם המדינה, בשביל זה תהיה מדינת הלאום הפלסטינית בגדה (אינשאללה).

          • "לא חלק ממנה" זה לא חלק מהלאום של המדינה. זה אומר שלאזרחי המדינה היהודים יש זכות שאין לאזרחי המדינה הפלסטינים וזו הזכות להגדרה עצמית, להיות קהילה פוליטית. ומי שאין לו את הזכות להיות קהילה פוליטית הוא אוסף של פרטים שלא בא לידי ביטוי פוליטי שווה ערך ולכן חזקה גם על שאר הזכויות שיישללו ממנו. שוויון כבר לא יהיה שם.

            אפשר גם מדינה דו-לאומית עם גבולות רכים שבה היהודים והפלסטינים מנהלים את ענייניהם הלאומיים והתרבותיים בעצמם מתחת לאיזו ממשלת גג שלא נכנסת יותר מדי לסיפור הלאומי-זהותי. כך לא ייכפו סמלים זרים לא על היהודים ולא על הפלסטינים ולשניהם תהיה הגדרה עצמית לאומית.

            ביקום מקביל, היה אפשר גם להחזיק מדינה יהודית עם מיעוט בעל אוטונומיה בענייני תרבות שמקבל את זכות ההגדרה העצמית הלאומית שלו במדינת פלסטין השכנה ונהנה משוויון זכויות אזרחי. זאת הייתה דמוקרטיה "לא מושלמת" אבל סבירה, רק שאני לא רואה את זה קורה.

            • גיא says:

              אני לא רואה את ההבדל ביהודי הונגרי, שחי במדינת הלאום המדיארית, שלא מקבל את זכות ההגדרה הפוליטית. אם הוא רוצה הגדרה פוליטית, הוא יכול לבחור לעלות לישראל, מדינת הלאום שלו, שם יקבל אחלה הגדרה עצמית.
              (אפרופו הרצל).
              אם ערבי ישראלי רוצה הגדרה עצמית פוליטית, הוא צריך "לעלות" לפלסטין, כמו שיהודי צריך לעלות לישראל. זה שוויוני והוגן ואני לא רואה מה הבעיה עם זה.
              "חזקה על שאר הזכויות שישללו" – קפיצה לוגית נעדרת הסבר.

              הרעיון עם ממשלת גג דו לאומית – לא הבנתי, מה יהיה הדגל של המדינה הזו? מדיניות הגירה? איך אפשר שהסמלים והחוקים לא יהיו שייכים לאף צד ועדיין לא ייכפו סמלים זרים? איך אפשר ליישם את הדבר הזה?

            • שלום בוגוסלבסקי says:

              גיא, אלו שטויות. יהודי יכול להיות בן הלאום ההונגרי, הפולני, הספרדי או האמריקאי. באף מקום בעולם היום, יהודים אינם נחשבים רשמית לבני לאום אחר מלאום המדינה בה יש להם אזרחות. רק ישראל מחשיבה אותם ככאלה.

              אין כאן קפיצה לוגית בכלל. אם אנחנו קהילה פוליטית שהיא בעלת המדינה והם רק אוסף של אינדיבידואלים שחיים בינינו, הזכויות שלהם תלויות בזה שאנחנו ניתן להם אותם מטוב ליבנו. ולמה שניתן?

              לגבי מדינה דו לאומית, יהיה את החלק היהודי שלה שיהיו בו סמלים יהודיים, החלק הפלסטיני עם סמלים פלסטינים וממשל פדרטיבי. סתם כיוון למחשבה, להבדיל מסיפור שתי המדינות, על התרחיש הזה לא עבדו מאות טנקי חשיבה במשך עשרות שנים והפרקטיקה עוד לא מוגדרת.

            • גיא says:

              אבל המושג "מדינת לאום" מתייחס ללאום אתני.
              לפי מה שאתה אומר, הרי שכל המדינות בעולם הינן מדינות לאום (בדומה למה שעדו אמר לגבי "כל אזרחיה"), זה מרוקן את המושג מתוכן.

              לגבי "טוב ליבנו" – לא בדיוק טוב ליבנו, יותר כמו המינימום של מוסר אנושי בסיסי (ואולי קורטוב של חשש מסנקציות).

              אני חושב שיהודי, בין שתופס עצמו שייך ללאום היהודי ואפילו אם לאו – אף שהוא גר בשוודיה, אינו שייך לקבוצה האתנית השוודית, על תרבותה ומאפייניה, ולכן גם לא ללאום השוודי. אזרחות כן, לאום לא. וזה בסדר. הוא עדיין אזרח שווה זכויות, רק שאינו מזדהה עם הצלב הצהוב על הדגל.

            • שלום בוגוסלבסקי says:

              גיא, קודם כל כן, כל המדינות היום הן מדינות לאום, חוץ מגמה מדינות רב לאומיות. כמו שכבר נאמר לך, חוץ מישראל אין מדינה שאינה "מדינת כל אזרחיה" וזה לא סותר את מדינת הלאום בשום מקום חוץ מישראל.

              הלאום יכול להיות על בסיס אתני כמו במזרח אירופה או על בסיס אזרחי כמו במערב אירופה וארה"ב (ותמיד יש תמהיל כזה או אחר משניהם). אבל בשום מקום בעולם עד כמה שידיעתי מגעת לא קיים מצב שבו יש אזרחים ש – רשמית – אינם חלק מהלאום של המדינה.

              איך זה עובד? גם אם הלאום הוא על בסיס אתני, האתניות אינה המבחן הבלעדי וההגדרות לא כ"כ קשיחות. אז במדינות כמו פולין או רוסיה יהודי הוא אולי לא מהמיינסטרים של הלאום, אבל הוא בהחלט כלול בו. ישראל היא היוצא דופן היחיד בעניין הזה. המצב שקיים בפועל בישראל מבחינת תפיסת האזרחות והלאום למעשה מקביל להצעותיהן של מפלגות הימין הקיצוניות ביותר במקומות כמו הונגריה.

              זכויות שתלויות בטוב ליבו, בהעדפותיו ובמוסר של מאן דהו אינן זכויות. רוב הישראלים מאז קום המדינה בעד זכויות אזרחיות אינדיבידואליות שוות לערבים אזרחי ישראל, ואף ממשלה לא העלתה על דעתה לעשות את הצעד הזה בפועל. אנחנו לא ניתן אפילו את שוויון הזכויות הדמיקולו הזה לערבים ואין מה להשלות את עצמינו בעניין.

            • צחי says:

              "הלאום יכול להיות על בסיס אתני כמו במזרח אירופה או על בסיס אזרחי כמו במערב אירופה וארה"ב (ותמיד יש תמהיל כזה או אחר משניהם). אבל בשום מקום בעולם עד כמה שידיעתי מגעת לא קיים מצב שבו יש אזרחים ש – רשמית – אינם חלק מהלאום של המדינה.
              "

              Finns in Sweden, Hungarians in Romania, and more. Recognized ethnic minorities, distinct from the nation, with full civil rights and some cultural autonomy.

          • Alon Levy says:

            גיא, אמריקאי שיגיד שאמריקה לא שייכת לשחורים (שהרי לא בחור להגר) באותה מידה שהיא שייכת ללבנים ינודה כגזען חשוך.

      • עדו says:

        עוד פעם?
        אין דבר כזה מדינה שאיננה 'מדינת כל אזרחיה' בדיוק כשם שאין יער שאיננו מורכב מסך העצים שבו או אימא שאיננה 'אם כל ילדיה'.( יכולים להיות ילדים מועדפים יותר ופחות למרבה הצער). המחשבה שאסון יקרה לנו אם נהיה 'מדינת כל אזרחיה' היא בדיוק אותה שטות שטוענת שאיננו יכולים להיות 'ככל המדינות'.
        גם זה ביטוי חסר משמעות. אם יהיה פה שלטון דתי נהיה כמו איראן, אם שלטון דמוקרטי נהיה כמו אמריקה וכן הלאה. תמיד נהיה 'ככל המדינות' מעצם היות ישראל מדינה.

        • יש מדינה אחת שלא שייכת לכל אזרחיה וקוראים לה ישראל, זו בדיוק הבעיה.

          • יואב says:

            יש ילידים בעולם שלא נולדו במדינת לאום שלהם.
            לדוגמא גרמנים שנולדו בצ'כיה או בפולין. יש עוד.

            אם גרמני כזה רוצה הגדרה עצמית – הוא יעבור למדינה גרמנית. בתור אזרח צ'כי יש לו זכות להצביע ולהבחר, למרות שסמלי המדינה יכולים להיות צ'כיים ולא גרמניים.

            • dervney says:

              אין שום דבר בחוק הצ'כי שמגדיר חוקית את מעמדו של אדם כזה כגרמני. מדובר באזרח צ'כי לכל דבר גם אם בבית שלו דיברו גרמנית .

            • Alon Levy says:

              "אם גרמני כזה רוצה הגדרה עצמית – הוא יעבור למדינה גרמנית."

              המדינה היחידה שהתייחסה ככה לגרמנים, חוץ מבכמה השנים אחרי המלחמה, היתה איטליה הפשיסטית. בשאר אירופה, הסטנדרט הוא לכיוון זכויות שפה. גרמנים בדרום טירול ממשיכים לדבר גרמנית ומערכת החינוך האיטלקית המודרנית מאפשרת להם את זה.

            • יואב says:

              הי, אני מגיב לך, אלון.

              יש עדיין הרבה מדינות שסמלי הלאום שלהם קשורים לדת ולתרבות מסוימת. בערך לחצי ממדינות אירופה יש צלב על הדגל. איך מוסלמי אזרח אנגליה ירגיש?
              איך הוא יכול להזדהות עם אנגליה, ועם המלכה, שסבתא שלה כבשה את מדינת המקור שלו?
              בכל זאת, אף אחד לא מציע להחליף את הדגל או לשנות את ההמנון.

  4. צרי says:

    שמע, אתה מביא פוסטים פעם ב-, וכל הפעם ב- האלה פשוט בועטות עמוק ומטלטלות.. להרבה זמן.
    תודה לך. באמת.

  5. מיכאל says:

    אני לא חושב שאני מסכים. אני לא חושב שההישגיות הזאת היא קפיטליסטית (או בכלל איכשהו קשורה לחיים הבוגרים). האופן בו הדברים נלמדים בביה"ס לא עוזר כלל להתקדמות בתחומים הללו בחיים. ההישגיות הזאת היא בדיוק מה שרואים ב-The Wire, בחירת מטרות קלות כדי לתת הרגשה שעושים משהו. אין מאחוריה איזו אידיולוגיה.
    ובכלל, אני מאוד לא אוהב את כל הדיבורים על "ערכים". החינוך צריך לתת לילד כלים לחיות חיים מאושרים לפי בחירתו, להרגיש מיצוי, להבין את הסביבה שלו. "ערכים" זה בדיוק ההפך מזה. זו הבעיה של כל החילונים שמצטרפים לטיעוני ה"עגלה הריקה" ובוכים שאין לחילונים איזהשהם ערכים אלטרנטיביים לדת. ברור שאין להם, יש להם במקום זה דאגות קיומיות פשוטות ורצון לחיות חיים שטוב לחיות.

    • לא, "ערכים" זה בדיוק זה. אתה כנראה מדבר על אינדוקטרינציה. זה שבמערכת החינוך הישראלית אין הבדל בין הדברים לא אומר שבאמת אין.

      • מודי תולשששש says:

        ראוי להרחבה לפוסט. או הפניה אם כבר כתבת כזה.

      • רע says:

        מה שמודי אמר (ובמילותיי: שלום, איפה עובר לתפיסתך הגבול בין "חינוך לערכים" לבין אינדוקטרינציה. תודה!).

        • שלום בוגוסלבסקי says:

          בקצרה: אם אתה בוחן אותם ודן בהם, מאפשר פלורליזם ערכי, לא מנחיל אותם באופן מניפולטיבי או כוחני, זה חינוך לערכים ולא אינדוקטרינציה.

          • מיכאל says:

            אני לא מאוד מבין את העיסוק הזה בסמנטיקה. אם המשמעות והמטען של המילה "ערכים" אינו דומה בין שנינו (או בינך לבין מישהו אחר) אין לנו על מה להתווכח.
            כשאני אומר "ערכים" אני מתכוון למה שהמערכת מגדירה כערכים. אין לי שום סיבה לאתגר אותם בסמנטיקה שלהם, רק במהות.

  6. תומר says:

    אני מורה בתיכון ממלכתי ובדיוק שלשום לקחו אותנו לסיור בירושלים. התחלקנו לשלוש קבוצות, כל קבוצה קיבלה מדריך חובש כיפה ואז לקחו אותנו לישיבה, לקחו אותנו למנהרות הכותל (אתר שמנוהל ומתוכנן ע"י דתיים) והראו לנו סרט על צעירים חילונים שלא מחוברים לירושלים ואז לקחו אותנו למיצג "שרשרת הדורות" שגם שם קיבלנו מדריכה עם חצאית ושמענו באמצעות אפקטים תלת מימדיים על מקומנו בשרשרת הדורות היהודית שמרכזה ירושלים ושאין להפקירה בשום פנים ואופן.
    הפוסט הזה מהווה שיקוף מדוייק לחלוטין של הרגשתי עם תיקון קל: אין זו רק הכתבה ממשלתית, החילונים בעצמם כחברה בוחרים שוב ושוב לפנות לדתיים בכל פעם שהם צריכים הטענה של ערכים "יהודים ציוניים".

    • אור says:

      אז לאן הולך הכסף? לארגונים סרוגי כיפה או מגדליה לגודל דונם המרצים לחילונים על ערכים ואהבת הארץ ברוח הקוק , הרב קוק , או לעתים הרבנית קוק. ולמי שהגיב וטען שההוגים אינם ציונים , אשאל – הרצל – לא ציוני בעיניך??

  7. י.א says:

    אפילו לא צריך "ערכים". סתם מדעי הרוח – ספרות עברית ומתורגמת – ותולדות המדע קצת, ואבולוציה, והיסטוריה כמו שצריך.

  8. Pingback: המתחזה הנבוב: עוד כיספות של יאיר לפיד | החברים של ג'ורג'

  9. שאול says:

    ניטפוק – צריך לומר חצי הכוס המלא, ולא חצי הכוס המלאה (אנחנו מדברים על החצי המלא של הכוס, ולא על מצב שבו יש שתי כוסות. אחת מלאה ואחת ריקה ואנחנו מסתכלים על חצי הכוס המלאה.)
    אם זה נשמע משונה, אפשר להשמש במחצית הכוס המלאה.

    • אורן says:

      "חצי" הוא כמו "רוב" לצורך העניין. לא מדובר ביישות אוטונומית, אלא רק בחלק ממשהו מוגדר. "רוב הכוס מלאה", לא "רוב הכוס מלא".

      ואם כבר הגבתי לך, אחסוך עוד תגובה, ואעיר שיש לומר "נהלים" ולא "נוהלים".

      • איתי says:

        לא חושב שזה נכון. "רוב הכנסת קבע כי…" למרות שהכנסת היא נקבה. בכלל, איזה מין הסבר לשוני זה ש "לא מדובר בישות אוטונומית"? מה זה אומר בכלל?

    • אילן חטב says:

      ניתן לאמר בברור המחצית המלאה של הכוס(או החצי המלא,חציו המלא) בכלל הייתי אומר חלקו המלא של הכוס,היות וחלק הכוס המלא לא תמיד שווה לחלק הריק למעשה נדיר שיהיה שויון בין החלקים
      חפרתי מספיק

      • אילן חטב says:

        סליחה תיקון טעות : חלקה המלא ולא חלקו המלא כי כוס זה לשון נקבה וכן חצייה המלא ולא חציו המלא כפי שכתבתי בסוגריים

  10. אני מסכים עם רוב האבחנות של שלום, עם הבדלי דגשים מסויימים, כמובן. אני לא חושב שחומר הלימוד בחינוך הממ"ד מתקרב למדרסות באפגניסטן, אם כי אין ספק שישנה הקצנה משמעותית ומדאיגה מאד (שגם הרב יובל שרלו עמד עליה, בראיון כואב מאד שנתן בזמנו).

    הציבור הדתי-לאומי הוא קבוצת מיעוט בחברה הישראלית. קבוצת מיעוט שאני חולק נמרצות עם האידיאולוגיה והתיאולוגיה שלה, עם מפעל ההתנחלויות שהיא מובילה, ובמיוחד עם האליטה הרבנית שלה. ובכל זאת, אני חושב שמדובר בציבור חשוב ותורם, וחלק בלתי נפרד מהחברה הישראלית. אין לי גם בעיה שתלמידים חילונים פוגשים מדריכים לבושי כיפות וחצאיות ושומעים מהם תכנים כאלה ואחרים. הבעיה הגדולה שלי, וכאן אני מסכים עם שלום, היא שהתכנים הללו מוצגים כסטנדרט ל"יהדות" ול"ציונות". אני גם מסכים עם נקודה נוספת שהוא העלה, ועמדתי עליה כבר במאמר שפרסמתי בזמנו על פייגלין וקבוצתו – השיח הדתי ה"רזה" שמונחל לציבור החילוני, שמורכב בעיקר מאמונה בעליונות יהודית ושנאת זרים (בעיקר ערבים) הוא מסוכן במיוחד- משום שקל לחילונים לקבל אותו. אחרי הכל, מי לא ירצה לחשוב שקבוצתו עליונה באופן אינהרנטי על אחרים?

  11. יוני says:

    משובח.

  12. יעקב says:

    ניתוח מצויין וניסוח גם.
    ממש אתמול כתבתי משהו (אם כי בפחות כשרון) ברוח זו
    http://israblog.nana10.co.il/blogread.asp?blog=538749&blogcode=13432859

  13. natan says:

    ענק ומדיוק !

    תודה רבה,

  14. טל says:

    משובח!

  15. אור says:

    אוסיף ואומר-אין התנגדות שסרוג כיפה ירצה לחילונים , ארצה שחילוני ירצה לסרוגי כיפה . תכנית גשר היא שיא החד צדדיות , ואין לה מקבילה , כי בתי"ס דתיים לא מוכנים לסימטריה הזו. החופש להציג עמדות הוא בחצר החינוך הכללי , ובחינוך הדתי מקודשת האינדוקטרינציה הדתית. בארץ אין לימוד פילוסופיות כלליות ברמה ובהיקף , אין לימוד כלים להבנת העולם (לא דרך ששת ימי בריאה) ולימודי האבולוציה הם כל כך מעטים , שהיא למעשה כקוריוז , וכל בן שבע מבי"ס דתי ילעג לה ולא יהיה מענה מצד לא דתי. לימודי המדעים דלים והפכו לפינוק לנוער אמיד במרכז. הפריפריה תסתדר , יש מוסדות ש"ס ומזוזות בכל ממ"ד , ותבחרו אתם אם ממלכתי דתי , או מרחב מוגן…

    • אם אתה מדבר על ארגון גשר (גשר מפעלים חינוכיים) שהוא בסך הכול ארגון בסדר וגילוי נאות: עבדתי בו כמה שנים, אז אתה צודק. הדגל שלו הוא מפגשי דתיים חילונים, אבל הוא עושה את מעט מאוד כי יש מעט מאוד בתי ספר דתיים שמוכנים להשתתף במפגשים כאלה והם גם מעמידים תנאים די דרקוניים שמעוררים כעס גם בקרב המנחים הדתיים. אז רוב מוחלט של הפעילות הוא סדנאות יהדות לבתי ספר חילוניים. אני בעד, אבל לא מקובל עלי שהחינוך החילוני הוא הזירה היחידה בה מתנהל השיח הזה, ושדתיים יכולים לבחוש בחינוך החילוני אבל אסור לעשות את ההיפך.

      • אילן חטב says:

        אין שיח עם דתיים אורטודוקסים: הם מאמינים וההגיון אינו מן המניין,המדע טוב כל אימת שאינו מתנגש עם האמונה – אני מכיר את זה מהמשפחה שלי
        כל עוד הנושא לא נוגע לדת מתנהל דיון הגיוני קולח ומהנה ויש שמשתכנעים , כשזה מגיע לדת עוברים לשפת הסיסמאות

  16. זאזו says:

    יפה כרגיל. חשוב להזכיר את ההזנחה הפאתטית של לימודי הערבית. קצת יכולות שיח והבנה של שכונתנו היו יכולות למלא קצת, טיפה'לה כזה, את חצי הכוס הריק של החינוך החילוני.

  17. מיקי לטוביצקי says:

    אני מתקשה מאוד (מאוד) להאמין שתקציב החינוך הממלכתי-דתי הוא רק 58.5 מליון שקלים (לשם השוואה, תקציב משרד החינוך היה בשנה שעברה 37.5 מיליארד שקלים, ובממ"ד לומדים סדר-גודל של חמישית מהתלמידים). בכתבה ב"הארץ" כתוב שזה התקציב ל"פעולות בחינוך הממלכתי דתי", ואני לא יודע מה בדיוק זה מממן, אבל לא יכול להיות שזה כל התקציב של החינוך המ"ד.
    בסקאלה של תקציב משרד החינוך, התקציב הזה עלה מבערך אפס למשהו שהוא יותר מאפס, וכמובן שבאחוזים זה הרבה מאוד.

    • מיקי לטוביצקי says:

      תיקון: הציטוט המדויק הוא "תקציב הפעולות של האגף הממלכתי-הדתי". הכתבה לא מסבירה מה קיבלנו תמורת הכסף הזה, למרבה הצער.

      • מיקי, הפוסט הזה הוא לא באמת על תקציב, אלא על החזון של משרד החינוך הנוכחי ובמידה רבה של כולם מאז קום המדינה. ואני חושב שהגדלת הסעיף התקציבי הזה במאות אחוזים בקדנציה הזאת הוא אחד הדברים שמראים לנו את זה.

  18. אריק says:

    כשאני חושב על החינוך החילוני בבית הספר, אני נזכר שבשנות התיכון שלי (אי שם בשנות התשעים) נתקלתי בספר לימוד בדפדוף מקרי במשהו "שפוצץ לי את המוח", משהו שלא נתקלתי בו לפני כן. זאת הייתה הצהרת זכויות האדם (נוסח האו"ם). ברגע ההוא הבנתי שיש כוס מלאה לחילונים, ויש לנו דרך, אך פשוט לא מראים לנו אותה. אני חושב גם שאחת הפעולות הראשונות של דר' צבי צמרת הייתה להסיר את לימודי הצהרת זכויות האדם מתכנית הלימוד.
    כל מי שיהודי מאמין לדעתי חושש מן המשפט "כל בני האדם נולדו שווים" כי הוא פשוט חזק יותר מכל תאוריה שלהם שהיהודים הם העם הנבחר.
    מה שמביא את נתניהו ויועציו לבחור בצד הזה של החינוך (גדעון סער הוא רק פיון), בצד של "היהודים הם העם הנבחר" וכל ה"מסביב" אשר הולך אתו, הוא העובדה שהתמיכה האמריקאית בישראל מגיעה מציבור שגם לא כל כך מאמין שכל בני האדם נולדו שווים, האוונגליסטים.
    נתניהו בונה (בצדק) רק על תמיכה דתית אמריקאית לרעיונות המשיחיים שלו, ובתמורה הוא מעניק לאוונגליסטיים מדינת ישראל שעומדת בקנה אחד עם את החזון הדתי המשיחי שלהם. ומפה חוסר האכפתיות שלו לחינוך החילוני.

    • Alon Levy says:

      ביסודי הצפון תל-אביבי שלי, ההצהרה היתה מודבקת לקיר בכיתה שלנו. כולל הסעיפים על הזכות להמיר את הדת ולעזוב ארץ.

      אני לא חושב שאתה צודק כשאתה משווה את ביבי לאוונגליסטים. הפטרון שלו הוא אדלסון, שהוא ממש לא אוונגליסט. האוונגליסטים אמנם תומכים בארגוני ימין (וגם בארגוני מרכז כמו אם תרצו…) אבל לפי איך שישראל משתלחת בנוצרים, אפילו נוצרים אמריקאים לפעמים ולא רק נוצרים ערבים או אפריקאים, הימין הישראלי סתם לוקח מהם כסף. זה הכסף של יהודים ימנים שמתנגד לזכויות אדם, לא נצרות פונדמנטליסטית.

      • נטליה says:

        ביסודי הצפון תל אביבי שלי = אמרת הכל.

        כנראה איזה מורה/מנהל צפון תל-אביבי התעקש על זה. אין מוכוונות מלמעלה לזה. ב-98.4% מבתי הספר ההצהרה הזאת לא תהיה על הקיר. ה1.6% הם בצפון תל אביב או בבתי ספר למחוננים בנגב (כי גם ילדי עומר זכאים לדעת על הצהרות זכויות האדם של האו"ם).

  19. איתמר says:

    היי,
    לא קראתי את כל התגובות אז סליחה אם היה כבר.
    לדעתי ההחלטות על החינוך צריכות להשאר ביידי ההורים – הם הסמכות והם מקור הכסף. רוצה חינוך דתי? תשלם. רוצה חילוני ציוני? תשלם. רוצה חילוני אנטי ציוני? תשלם. אלה הילדים שלך.
    כל עוד קיימת קופה ציבורית, זה הכרח שיהיו אנשים המנצלים אותה, שהחינוך יהיה ברמה נמוכה ושיהיו מניעים פוליטים במערכת.
    רק הוצאת הממשלה וועדי העובדים מהמערכת יכולה להציל אותה.

    • שלום בוגוסלבסקי says:

      אני מוכן, בגבולות מסוימים, שיהיה ניצול של הקופה הציבורית ושילמדו גם דברים שלא מוצאים חן בעיני אם זה אומר שכל ילד יקבל חינוך ולא רק מי שההורים שלו מבוססים כלכלית.

    • ד.ר says:

      אני לא מאמין שהמנדט צריך להשאר רק בידי ההורים. לשאלה לאיזה חינוך זוכים הילדים יש השפעה גם מחוץ לתא המשפחתי, ובכל מקרה ההורים הם לא שליטים אבסולוטים על ילדיהם.

  20. חגית says:

    שלום יקר, זו פעם ראשונה שאני קוראת את הבלוג שלך ו… איך לומר… אני די המומה… אתה חושב שמדינת ישראל צריכה לתעדף תכנים גויים על פני תכנים יהודיים למען החילוניות ופשוט "לא מבין" למה ללמד על זכותנו לארץ ישראל, למה להתמקד בעם ישראל ולא בדנמרק, למה ללמד תורה ולא אבולוציה? למה תורתו של הרב קוק עדיפה על כל פילוסוף אחר? כשטיילתי באיטליה היו איזורים שאף אחד לא הבין את האנגלית שלי. אתה יודע למה? בין השאר מכיוון שהם כל כך מעריכים ומוקירים את תרבותם, שזו נראית להם זילות לדבר בשפה אחרת.
    עד כדי כך אין לך הערכה ל3500 שנה של תרבות יהודית שאתה מוכן לקנות כל תרבות גויית בשקל במקומה? מה אתה צריך? עוד רדיפת יהודים? עוד שואה שתזכיר לך שאתה לא כמו כולם? שאתה לא יכול להיות באמת קוסמופוליטי גם אם נורא תרצה?
    אין דבר כזה תרבות חילונית. יש יהודית וגויית. למה היפנים מבינים את זה ומשמרים את תרבותם כבר 3000 שנה ואתה לא? יהודי שלא מכיר וחי את תרבותו פשוט צורך תרבות גויית. לצערי אני למדתי בבי"ס חילוני ובמגמת ספרות למדתי את הזר של קאמי, החטא ועונשו של דוסטוייבסקי ועוד בלי סוף יצירות חולות נפש שהחילוניים נוהגים לכנות בשם "יצירות מופת".
    אף אחד לא טרח לספר לי על הרב קוק, הרמב"ם, הבעל שם טוב, הרמח"ל, הרב אשלג והאר"י.
    אתה מבין? הרחיקו אותי מהשורשים שלי ואחרי זה לא הבינו למה אין לי שום מוטיבציה לשרת בצה"ל.
    אני חילונית אבל הציבור הדתי לאומי הוא הציבור הכי טוב בארץ. אתה צריך להוריד את הכובע בפני תעדוף התקציב הזה, כי הוא מייצר את הקצינים ששומרים עליך ואת האנשים שמוכנים להקדיש את חייהם למען עם ישראל וארץ ישראל.
    מעדיפה עוד מליון רבנים מתחככים בארץ ישראל מאשר אנשים ריקניים עם מבט מזוגג בעיניים וריטלין זורם בוורידים.
    האמת היא שהבלוג שלך שימח אותי. לא ידעתי שיש לי שר חינוך שאפשר לסמוך על שיקול הדעת שלו לגבי אלו ערכים כדאי לשמר ועל מה לא שווה להשקיע שקל.

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    קודם כל, הפוסט כתוב יפה וחזק.
    עם זאת, אני לא מסכים איתך כלל:
    מבחינה מבנית, ממש לא משנה בכמה עלה תקציב הממ"ד, השאלה היא, כמה מקבל תלמיד בממ"ד באופן יחסי, למול כמה מקבל תלמיד בחינוך הממלכתי באופן יחסי. זאת השאלה, ואין עליה תשובה בפוסט. אין שום השוואה. ובהנחה שתלמיד בחינוך הממ"ד מקבל את אותן שעות בדיוק במדעים ואנגלית וכו', הרי שיש להוסיף לו שעות של לימודי תורה ותפילה, ולכן, יש מקום אף שיהיה התקציב גבוה יותר. אבל אפילו אם לא, הרי שלכל הפחות צריך להיות זהה.

    לענין היות מדינת ישראל מדינת היהודים, הרי שאותו יהודי שוודי, או תוניסאי, כשירצה לעלות לישראל, לא יחשב כשוודי או תוניסאי, אלא כיהודי. ובכך, יוכל לקבל אזרחות ישראלית באופן מיידי.
    ומכאן, שמדינת ישראל רואה את עצמה כמדינת הלאום של יהודים בעלי אזרחויות בכל העולם. ומבחינה זו, היא דומה מאד לארצות הברית, שמקבלת אזרחים מכל העולם.
    אלא מה, כל כולה של ההצדקה לקיומה של מדינתנו הקטנה, היתה והינה היותה המקום להגדרה עצמית מדינית של יהודים. טול ממנה את זאת, ונטלת ממנה את זכות הקיום.
    ולכן, הקריאה להפוך את מדינת ישראל ממדינה יהודית למדינת כל אזרחיה, הן מבחינת סמלים והן מבחינה מהותית שווה לקריאה למחיקת המדינה מהמפה.

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      מדינת ישראל קיימת היום, ואם תיקח ממנה את זכות הקיום היא תמשיך להיות קיימת.

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